sinjun

What's effect spoofing? I don't get that term and never heard of it before, but I'm interested. :)

As for the flood scene... it's not a plot, but more an RP event to get RP going in the area. We had a build up with the posts, a scene, and I'll need to remember that the rain will stop and stuff. Yeah.. the first floors of the buildings around the park and the Square are likely water logged (so water damage to furniture and stuff), but the buildings should be fine. I wasn't totally in on that scene with another event running at the same time. However, we'll get together to send the kid away, and work on the weave.

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My question was more about buildings not right on the square and the park. Like Jessa's Inn or Di's Manor.

I will however let Wolfcat explain the area effect spoofing. She'll do a better job than I can. ;)

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insaint.livejournal.com

I'm thinking the surrounding areas (like the residential estates) would also get some damage, but not a lot. More along the lines of slightly flooded basements, but nothing overly serious.

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Yes. We'll have to do that.

Well, part of the preparations Rwn did was to shore up building foundations and wall chinks/cracks, etc. So, the only water damage to public building should be that which comes through doors and windows. Not walls and floorboards.

Just so you know.

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*nods* Yeah... though shoulder level.. alot could get through those, but I'm not picky. :)

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It was hard to tell how high the water was last night. But, yes. Providing there are no tall steps leading up to the building, a lot can get in through doors and windows — even boarded up. That's certainly true.

Oh. And the answer to that thought about "general effect spoofing"... What Elyse did during the Manetheran battles was to purposely spoof background action. Random troops crossing through the battle, the state of the soldiers' morale on each side, the sounds heard from the far side of the battlefield. Stuff like that. She also arranged that important NPCs — dreadlords, human commanders, fades, powerful monsters — were spoofed either by herself or by some of the rest of us such that every PC involved in the scene had someone else to play against and couldn't twink out by deciding that they faced hoards of stupid Trollocs that just walked willing up onto their brandished blade. It not only kept things honest, it help hold people's attention. It heightens the "What's going to happen next?" suspense and engages the player more fully. The number of compliments I've heard given to Elyse over her handling of that last battle in Manetheren stems almost entirely from that. She took the time to direct the scene without scripting in, merely reasoning out what the logical consequences of any given action might be.

Last night, I felt it would have been useful for a few more poses focused on just how high the waves were, how high the water was rising and how quickly, when it reached what level, how successful various actions would be in the pull of the current, and other similar environmental reactions in addition to Joran's rantings. In essense, I would have liked a better sense of the stuff that was happening in the background and in the overall environment. Just a personal preference, really. And an observation. I, for instance, didn't know whether or not to assume Rwn and Wyntere's link had succeeded or whether the Angreal had done something else, or whether something else had happened to prevent it... stuff like that. I felt that I wanted someone to play against so that the struggle wasn't just me coming up with some sort of super-channeller rescue — which is generally a no-no in Malkier.

Of course, that's just my personal preference, in scenes like that. I've always felt it's more helpful to have a designated DM who can drive the shape of the scene without dictating its outcome. It's both a skill and an art, I admit. But, one I've found well worth developing and encouraging. In the end, I simply figure it just makes for more interesting scenes.

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That scene last night was for Age to direct. I was just another player in it and yes, I would have liked more poses of the effects going on. Generally, I do emit things like that in scenes depending on what type scenes I'm wanting to run. Sometimes, I just want PC scenes without all the extras. I cannot run battle scenes. The emitting is overload on me, and I hate battles with a passion. We used to run scenes with the general spoofing in the background like that. I think you just caught a bad night last night. We also used to emit a bad guy against every good guy, but that takes alot of patience and one able to keep big scenes straight. As for scripted endings.... we only script plots. I'm not sure where people get the idea that we script out ever single action. Even in the major Graendal thing, that was not solely scripted out and we all were letting the players decide what weave or how they wished to kill Graendal and her goons.

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I'm not entirely sure where those rumours come from. I only know what I've been told, which is that I have restored at least some players' faith in global TPs. Now, with that said, I have been involved in a few global TPs on Heroes since I've been playing on the game for quite a while now. I have had a few complaints here and there over how things happened, to be honest. But over all, I can't say that I have ever felt that things were scripted, except for one thing, and that might just be that I missed things in that particular plot. Entirely possible. Which is why I have not and will not take it further than this - I don't know whether I have all the information.

Maybe that's all it is? Players are there for only a bit, and thus miss out on some critical part to the plot that makes it all make sense?

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That could be it... There are also some of those players who say that like to complain just to complain.

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*grins*

Well, true enough, some folks aren't happy if they're not complaining.

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Oh, I know the idea that every single action is scripted is out there. I've had the same feeling myself on occasion, and have tended to back away at that point from playing in those instances, I must confess. I'm not precisely sure where it comes from, but I think that a lot of it is in +bb and @mail presentation. It's a tone of "THOU SHALT" as opposed to "We want to try...". Though, as I said, I'm not certain.

Too, I think it also comes partially from a perception that outside of a core group of players one's opinions on what might or might not constitute a really cool plot twist doesn't count. (It goes back to a variation of that foolish Et-friend debate. I'm hoping that's been quelled, now.) I've been caught both inside and outside that circle, in the past, myself. Guilty as anyone else on either side of the line, I confess. It's always a tough call, since it's usually all about comfort and control in some form or another. Trust in it's most basic form. It's generally easier to trust those players you know reasonably well and that think along the same lines as you — that make you comfortable, than those you either don't know well or that don't think along the same lines as you. But, that makes it very, very difficult. God knows, I've come down on other players like a ton of bricks before now just because I was acting with a misguided sense of control and a distinct lack of comfort. That's my guess, anyway. I won't claim it's right.

How to fix it, though? I don't know. The end of the Manetheren thing helped cosiderably, though, I think. What was different about that sequence, I can't say, though, because I honestly haven't tried to get involved in many of the rest of the big plots that have gone down — the Graendal thing included. (Partly, actually, because even I had the impression around that one that it was all planned out with no real room for variation, honestly. Though, mostly because I was too busy with RL.) So, I have no adequate baseline to be able to tell you what is normal on Heroes in terms of that sort of thing.

*chuckle* Not, I suppose, given how opinionated I've been today, it makes much of a difference. Sorry. I warned people at the top of the day I was in a creative mood.

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I was there, but not particularly much. It was way too much school work at the time. I still don't know how it ended. Part of the issue may well be the fact that a lot of plots end up played but never posted, so that folks never do find out what happens.

It's a fine line between too much ooc info for folks to use icly, and actually having them know what's going on. We all get to walk it in one form or another.

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I also think part of the problem is that we write out the plot and where we are going and why... then unless people get involved, that is how the plot is played out. Some things have to be carefully scripted to avoid player death, which I think some people don't realize.

For example: Player T is in jail in Malkier. Player U wants to kill that player without suffering IC consequences. Well, Malkier isn't going to have it's prisoners in a place where they could be easily killed. So that would need to be highly thought out.

I also think people don't realize the difference in global TP vs. regular TPs. Global ones are like the taint cleansing... it takes alot to get that planned out to where pieces fit in reason. With Age and I running it, if people start turning in another direction, it'd reasonable that it'll take forever. And there is room left in it to work. The Manetheren ending was a mess, but even the end of that was planned out. So... I'm confused.

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...then unless people get involved, that is how the plot is played out.

Personal experience talking here: If people don't get involved, don't play the plot. If people aren't interested, there's no point wasting your time. Find something they are interested in, instead, and let your original idea become either a personal plot or wait until a more receptive time. Let them run what they come up with after that, while you just nudge things enough to keep it inside acceptable IC bounds.

Some things have to be carefully scripted to avoid player death, which I think some people don't realize.

Okay... I have trouble accepting that as a reason to overscript things. Yes, I agree that on a consent-based game you can't go killing people's characters off if they don't want you to, so you have to find ways around that, but that doesn't mean excluding all chance. (There's a few people I would have taken out over the course of my RP career, let me tell you, if I didn't have to hassle with consent and the IC strictures it forces. And there's a few that would have happily done the same to me, too, I'm quite certain.) So, yes, limits have to be established. No question. No argument here about that. But, they should be reasonable to the situation.

Taking your example: Player U has the right to make an attempt on Player T's life. Player T can decide how successful that attempt may be. Player U cannot be allowed to escape IC consequences, however, though he should be permitted to have a hand in determining just what those consequences will be. Most people will be reasonable if you appeal to their sense of fairplay and remind them how they would feel in the same situation. And those that aren't reasonable are either twinks or people that are caught up in some sort of OOC situation that has unfortunately spilled IC. And that's a different problem all together — one that has absolutely nothing to do with the plot as an IC event.

Yes, you have to establish rules. But, the rules should ideally have some sort of flexibility to them.

Again, however, I would wager this is a perception issue. It could be, and, knowing you, like is, that you have tried to set flexible limits. I don't deny that. But, if your players aren't getting that impression, it doesn't make a difference how flexible you are. It all comes down to how flexible they think you are. And that is impossible to control.

I also think people don't realize the difference in global TP vs. regular TPs

Well, no. They don't, often enough. Not if they're young and/or inexperienced, at least. But, that also has absolutely nothing to do with the overscripting of a plot, either. The same prinicples apply, regardless of plot size. The trick with a global, far-reaching plot, however, is that you break it down into bite-sized chunks that are, in effect, mini-plots confined to specific areas. And you tailor those mini-plots to the people that want to be involved and try to involve as many different and disparate characters as possible. No small order, I know. Tough as hell and twice as ornerous.

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Well.. yeah. Most of that works when you aren't dealing with twinks. Player T in jail has agreed to death, but even so, Player U has to figure a good way to get in there and kill them without the consquences, so then you're stuck. :)

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Make Player U a judge.

And, if that doesn't work, pull out an inverted illusion weave to disguise them. A convenient NPC they can pay off and have disappear.

There are almost always options.

However, in the end, if you're dealing with twink, yeah. You have to simply be the heavy and put your foot down and be done with it.

But, there's never anything much you can do about a twink.

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The situation I'm thinking of... Player U is a twink. Have a channeler gate them in, slit the throat and get out... HA! Even inversion wouldn't work too well cause once they kill, they have to have a way out. The best is just to poison the food. ;) But why would I share that with a twink?

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Because it gets them out of your hair and won't actually hurt anyone in the long run.

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With Age and I running it, if people start turning in another direction, it'd reasonable that it'll take forever.

Okay, that I can't say very much about. Frankly, my opinion is that if you find people are turning it in a different direction, that's the way you go with it. You re-write. Running a TP, any TP, is all about re-writing. It's far more about re-writing, or writing possible contingencies, than it is anything else. It's a challenge, that's for sure.

Take Tam's Arches Plot, for instance.

You have given me OOC permission to successfully build them. For which I thank you. However, I will not promise you that I will in fact be able to take advantage of that. There are far too many variables I simply can't control unless I script it down so tightly I'd have to get you personally to intervene with a "THOU SHALT" to make it work. And wouldn't that piss everyone off? Of course, I know you won't do that, but that's not the point.

The point is that I have to be prepared for a whole lot of continencies and possibilities. For instance:

Basuma has given us IC permission to go ahead with taking the proposal to the Hall and even to the Tower if we can get it past the Hall. But, she's sure as hell not happy about it. In fact, she's downright furious, ICly, that we'd even consider such a thing. She could, at the very last moment, as Amyrlin, recind her permission if she wanted. That would twist the plot damn quick. And I have to be prepared for that. What do I do if that happens? Do I give up? Do I try a different tactic? If so, what? Similarily, the Hall could twist the plot damn quick, too. Hell, it already has by forcing Elyse to present it early. We had planned an extend period of feeling Sitters out and making a bunch of quiet backroom deals. Thanks to Atalanta, that's just gotten a whole lot harder and a whole lot less likely. Is that a problem? No. It just changes the picture. So, I re-write.

If the Hall denies Elyse permission to take it to the Tower, as a further example, I'll have to re-write again. What will happen then? Will they demand to have the final decision on it, yes or no? Or will they simply force Elyse to scrap it for now? If they want final decision, what answer will they give? If yes, we go ahead as planned and move on to gathering the build team and constructing the terangreal. If they say no, however, then what do I do? I have to re-write. Figure out my options — one of them being to say, "Okay. People don't want to play this farther. That's cool. I can end it here." Is that my choice for the end of the plot? No. Is it a possibility? Yes.

Plotting for a MUSH is not like plotting for a novel. It's all about continencies, options, and possibilities. It's like those choose your own adventure books from when you were a kid — except you can't ever memorize the route to your favourite end and it never ends the same way twice.

The Manetheren ending was a mess, but even the end of that was planned out. So... I'm confused.

No. The middle of the Manetheren plot was a mess. Right up until someone — whoever it was, I don't know — finally said "This needs to be fixed. Here's what we're going to do." (I know Elyse ran the final battle; I don't know who finally pulled things back on track to allow her to do so.)

The Manetheren plot languished badly in the middle, as far as I could tell. There was no direction of which I, as a regular player "not in the loop", was ever cognizant. But, no. I don't think the Manetheren ending was a mess. It might have been unexpected, but it wasn't a mess. Not from a plot p.o.v., anyway — though maybe from an OOC p.o.v. I don't know. I wasn't privy to that. The actual running of the scenes that ended the plot, however, once the direction had been re-established, went very cleanly, very smoothly, and with lots of room for surprises. To, the plot's ends were all tied together, just waiting for the next plot to begin: I.e. the division of Manethren and the beginnings of the conflict among the Alliance. In that regard, it was spectacularly successful.

But, it was getting to the point of being able to run the end that hurt like hell. With that I won't disagree.

At least, from what I was able to see, anyway.

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And see, here's where I get confused with all this. We don't script details down to the nitty gritty half the time. Just somethings need reasonable explainations in plotting like.. why would the Hall allow this? Why would Aelgar and Eharon get involved in Essenia? (I still don't have an answer for that.) But yeah.. I mean, I agree with you. One thing I've often noticed is that major global stuff gets started without an overall objective to go on. Or.. many players don't think of their own plots to run.

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